Posts by a Christian

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

One,

That's not too tough. God anticipated a problem and provided help for it in advance, help that would be understood at the appropriate time.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Leolaia, I cited the Space.com article only for its reference to the fact that dendrochonologists now tell us that tree ring growth patterns from around the world indicate that earth experienced a major climate disturbance in about the year 2350 BC, a disturbance which they tell us resulted in flooding in various parts of the world. I have a book by dendrochronologist, Mike Braille, which discusses at some length a few such major climate disturbances in earth's not too distant past, as recorded by tree ring growth patterns. The fact that one of these very few major climate disturbances occurred between the years 2354-2345 BC indicates to me that my understanding of Bible chronology, which dates Noah's flood to that same time period, may very well be a correct understanding. By referencing that article I did not mean to indicate that I agreed with all of its contents. You wrote: To hold onto 2350 BC as the date for these floods, one would thus require an ultra-low chronology (lower than any I know of currently endorsed) that would place the entire Uruk, Jemdet Nasr, Early Dynastic I and II, and Old Akkadian periods after 2350 BC. As I said earlier, I see a couple of possibilities. First, one or more of these Mesopotamian flood deposits may have been laid down by Noah's flood but have been incorrectly dated, due to faulty assumptions. Second, all of these flood deposits which have been "dated" earlier than 2350 B.C. have been correctly dated, but none of them were a product of Noah's flood. FunkyDerek, You wrote: I can't believe somebody could read that book and still espouse such wacky numerology. If I see a set of IP numbers attached to someone's posts on this discussion board and then I see that same set of IP numbers attached to someone's posts on another discussion board, is it "numerology" to strongly suspect that the posts on both boards were created by the same person? Certainly not. When I see the numbers 4, 40 and 400 used prominently throughout the Bible and then I see that the same numbers often appear in the astrophysical data of our sun, moon and stars, is it "numerology" for me to strongly suspect that both the Bible and the sun, moon and stars were created by the same God? I don't think so. One, I wrote: I believe this "sign" will help some people to put their faith in Christ who are now having a hard time doing so, due to being told that there is no scientific evidence that the God of the Bible exists.

You asked? Was that your case? Yes, it was.

You asked: What's the estimated 'success rate'? mainly outside this board, the result in this board is more or less obvious. I can't answer that. For, as of now, no one on this board or anywhere else has ever read my entire study of this subject matter. I have said that the Bible clearly indicates that exactly 4,000 years passed between Adam and Christ. However, I have never here demonstrated that to be true. However, I have said that this understanding, 4,000 years from Adam to Christ, is a very important part of "the sign of the Son of Man". That being the case, I really don't expect many people to be moved to put their faith in the God of the Bible before seeing for themselves that the Bible really does tell us that exactly 4,000 years passed between Adam and Christ. Some have found the mere fact that the same set of numbers appear in both the Bible and in the astrophysical data of the sun, moon and stars to be faith building. But I believe to personally see how these numbers in the Bible and in the sky point directly to Jesus Christ is what is most faith building. As of now, I do not intend to publish that study on this board. For I don't see that anyone here has really expressed much interest in such a "Bible study." Most here have little respect for the Bible and its historical accuracy. So I'm sure a study of Bible chronology on this forum would go over like a lead balloon. That's understandable. Ex-JWs have good reason to be suspicious of any studies having to do with "Bible chronology". You wrote: The wide spread inclination to refute the bible based on scientific evidence is rather a recent 'movement', so the "help" for such a minority group was supplied before the problem appeared, dont you think? Not really, the timing seems about right to me.

You asked: What kind of help has been supplied for the majority who wonder where is god/jesus when they for no apparent reason confront so many problems, catastrofic "natural" and man made events. Lots. We have prayer, God's Holy Spirit, the Bible, libraries filled with all sorts of Bible commentaries and books on every related subject, fellow believers (a.k.a. the body of Christ), spiritual shepherds (Church ministers), Internet Christian discussion forums. Not to mention the intelligent minds God gave us. You wrote: The bible, that you beleive is inspired thanks to the "help", does not seem to provide a clear answer even to those who beleive in it. Do you know the 'answer'.? Sure. Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Ask God to forgive your sins. Begin living a new life as a disciple of Christ, always following His example as closely as you can.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

One, You asked: What's so important about the sign then? I didn't say seeing this sign was "so important." No one really needs to see this sign to put their faith in Christ. For nearly 2,000 years billions of people have been able to do so without the help of any supernatural "signs". The same can be said of most people in poor Christian countries today. Most of them really don't need this sign or any other to allow them to put their faith in Christ. However, today many people in affluent "Christian" lands have had their hearts hardened against God by a predominant culture of atheism. I believe this "sign" will help some people to put their faith in Christ who are now having a hard time doing so, due to being told that there is no scientific evidence that the God of the Bible exists.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Alan, You wrote: I haven't read Humphrey's article yet. You then wrote: Since the biblical text is explicit that the Magi were led to Jesus by the 'star', it's obvious that the 'star' cannot have been an object situated at an astronomical distance from the earth. I think you should read Humphreys' article before making further comments along those lines. I used to feel the same way as you, before reading his article. I think you will find it very interesting. You wrote: From your 2nd post on the 2nd page of this thread ... I've had the impression that you agree with Carl Jonsson's dating of Noah's Flood to about 3500 B.C. I did not mean to give you that impression. I believe Noah's flood took place in about 2350 B.C. Some time ago I started a thread on this board entitled, "Space.com dates Noah's flood to 2350 B.C." I posted a link to this web page: http://space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/comet_bronzeage_011113-1.html There we are told that some serious scientists now date the ( large but not global ) flood of Noah's day to 2350 B.C. They do so based largely on the studies of dendrochonologists who tell us that our earth appears to have experienced a significant change in climate "from 2354-2345 B.C." They tell us such a change, recorded in tree rings around the world, would have almost certainly resulted in several very large floods. You wrote: I thought you accepted Jonsson's flood dating. If not, why? Because his date conflicts with my understanding of Bible chronology. You wrote: And how do you reconcile what Jonsson points out, namely, that there's almost no evidence for a massive Mesopotamian flood around 2350 B.C. The same way that Carl reconciles the fact that there is very little evidence for a massive Mesopotamian flood around 3500 B.C. First of all, several thousand years of natural land erosion have washed away nearly all evidence of large Mesopotamian floods which almost certainly occurred several thousand years ago. Second, the methods that are most commonly used to estimate the dates of ancient "flood deposits" which still remain in Mesopotamia are based on several assumptions which may not all be correct. Third, the Mesopotamian flood deposits which have been "dated" earlier than 2350 B.C., if dated correctly, may not have been laid down by Noah's flood, if Noah's flood did not cover all of Mesopotamia.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

I wrote: I tend to think that when Carl Sagan made that estimate he took into consideration that there are many new stars just now forming, and others which are just now dying, which may not now be able to be seen by us even with telescopes

You responded: he makes an estimate decades ago, and because it fits your theory you will cling to it no matter what science has done between times. The "400 Billion" number was taken from his book, "The Demon Haunted World", first published in 1995. Ten years does not "decades" make. Besides, I am aware of no figures more recently published which contradict Sagan's figure.

You wrote: Look at the date-of-birth thing. You have failed to convince ANYONE other than yourself of the validity of your 400x claim, you have made several people annoyed with you due to your convenient approximations, and then, having failed to modify your argument in anyway, you switch to birth-date. ... This is called switch and bait, in argumentative terms. I have discussed the date of Christ's birth at some length because Alan F challenged my "5 BC" date. You wrote: Now, you are not a JW, but you switch and bait. Your interest in NOT continuing discussing 400x is apparent in your failure to defend your theory about recurrence of eclipses, the number of years between Adam and Jesus, and all the other holes ... In order to "defend my theory", in which "the number of years between Adam and Jesus" according to the Bible, is just as important as the 400s "in the sun, moon and stars", I must firmly establish both the date of Christ's birth and the date of Adam's creation. Narkissos, Evidently, you find it hard to believe that "a renowned Cambridge University physicist" can also be a Christian. You may find the web site from which that article was taken to be of interest. http://www.asa3.org/ Science in Christian Perspective The American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) is a fellowship of men and women in science and disciplines that relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science. It is no "Young Earth Creationist" site.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Toreador,

You wrote: I have a hard time observing the reality of the holy spirit guiding people to understanding. Too much false doctrine and too many religions, each one claiming spirit direction and understanding.

I don't think that the Holy Spirit has helped all of the people who now claim to have received such help. Neither do I believe those who have been helped to understand some things correctly by the Holy Spirit have been helped by the Holy Spirit to understand all of the things they now understand.

In other words, some people arrived at all of their beliefs without any help from God. And some people arrived at only some of their beliefs with His help. That leaves room for an an awful lot of false doctrine.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Toreador,

You asked? Do you think the holy spirit has helped you to figure out the 400 thing you have going on here.

Yes, but no more than God helps others who ask Him for His help in understanding things.

You wrote: If not why do you suppose you are the first to stumble onto it?

So far as me being "the first to stumble onto it," I can't say that I am. As I have pointed out before, a Google search of "sun moon God 400" will show that other people now see the 400s in the sun and the moon as evidence that the God of the Bible designed and created our universe. Many people have long understand Bible chronology to tell us that 4,000 years passed between Adam and Christ. ( A Google search will confirm this. ) And I have talked to a few people over the last few years who have been aware of both sets of similar numbers, those in the Bible and in the sky, who have told me that they wondered before ever talking to me if there may be a connection between the two. I think I have simply devoted more time to studying this matter than most of these people have.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Abaddon,

You wrote: Let's just remind everyone (whilst you ponce around on your high-horse) that you used my first post on this thread (which was not in any way disrespectful) as an example of how Christians would not be treated with respect in such threads. You lied about me, implying I was disrespectful when I had not been.

In the post you refer to, you wrote: If there was no guidance from god in writing the Bible, then trying to reconcile the Genesis account to science is likely to be as accurate as reconciling the Greco-Roman creative myths in a similar fashion. They might appear to work, but it's more due to imagination on the part of those making the fit than any actual fit there is.

I responded by saying: As I think Abaddon's post makes plain, regardless of how well anyone here may show that the scriptures may actually speak in harmony with proven scientific realities, it is unlikely that the scriptures or the one defending them will ever be very much respected on this forum.

In saying that, I did not lie about you. And I did not imply that you were being disrespectful. However, it appears that I misunderstood what you wrote. Because I did I replied poorly.

You wrote: As you are yet to apologise for your behaviour it seems your double-standard for accuracy is matched by your double standard as regards personal conduct.

But as you know, or maybe have already forgotten, earlier in this same thread (page 10), I wrote: I'm sure I worded something I said to you poorly and in the process offended you. For that I am sorry. Please forgive me.

You then rejected my apology, saying: You lied about me, you didn't call me a liar. So, apologise for what you did, not for something you didn't do.

OK. I apologize for understanding you to say that any Christian who tries to reconcile the Genesis account of creation and the flood with science will only be able to do so in his imagination. You didn't exactly say that. You said that will only be true, "If there was no guidance from god in writing the Bible." That being the case, I admit I misrepresented what you said. However, I assure you that I did so as a result of misunderstanding what you wrote. But in any case, I again ask for your forgiveness. I was wrong. I'll try to read what you write more carefully in the future before responding to it.

So, since you say I misrepresented what you wrote (by missing the word "If"), are you saying that you feel there is a possibility of, "guidance from god in writing the Bible" ? Just curious.

You wrote: Now, you have been shown that there is NOT an exact 400 x ratio between Sun and Moon diameters, yet you continue to say; "But it can truthfully be said that the sun is always exactly 400 X the size of the moon, in diameter..."

As I wrote earlier, since you have shown me that the actual ratio is most likely not exactly 400, but 400 decimal point something or other, in the future I will be careful to always refer to this ratio with the words, "nearly exact."

You wrote: you are lying, intentionally. ... who is the father of the lie a Christian? If you lie, who's YOUR daddy?

Since I have now apologized to you for misrepresenting your views, I hope you will please stop these insulting, personal attacks.

You wrote: Oh, and the paper you posted just shows the Sun's diameter is not constant NOT THAT IT IS EXACTLY 400x that of the Moon.

I posted it, not to show that the Sun's diameter is exactly 400 X the size of the moon's diameter, and not to show that the Sun's diameter is not constant. I posted it to show that it is virtually impossible to ever say for sure exactly what the Sun's diameter is to the very mile, as we can with the moon's diameter. For different systems of measuring it produce different results. And at times even the same system of measuring it has produced contradictory results.

You wrote: As I have repeatedly said, you have little care for glorifying god, just yourself and your own errant theories.

Again, I hope in the future you will keep your posts constructive and dispense with all these insulting, personal attacks. I complemented Alan F for his quality post. For it contained new information very relevant to this discussion. Not just a bunch of repetitive low blows.

In referring to the number of stars in our galaxy, I wrote: Ok, so maybe I should say, "400 billion observable light emitting stars".

You responded: Errrr... you can't SEE 400 billion stars with the naked eye.

I didn't say you could. I know in making this estimate telescopes were used. The reason I said "observable light emitting stars" is because Alan was referring to planets and other various forms of dark matter, not just to stars. I don?t see that what he said changes ?400 Billion? as being the most recent and best estimate of the number of ?stars? in our galaxy. I tend to think that when Carl Sagan made that estimate he took into consideration that there are many new stars just now forming, and others which are just now dying, which may not now be able to be seen by us even with telescopes.

You then referred to me as being ?intentionally deceitful?.

Again, if you are going to participate in this discussion I wish that you would add to it something of substance, not just slander and insults. You wrote: It's great how the best estimate of Jesus' birth is now 2BC,

It is? Says who? That is only one man?s study. I and many others have also studied this subject matter at great length and disagree with his conclusions. But his opinion now is ?the best estimate?? Why is that? Because he disagrees with me? Or because Alan F says so?

You wrote: you post an article which only shows there could have been no 'star' as described in that year (if the star was a comet).

I posted much more information than that. In my post I clearly showed that, when Finegan dated the time of Christ?s birth, he underestimated the time of John the baptist?s ministry by three years. In reference to the 5 BC Star of Bethlehem article I posted, you wrote: you assume it wasn't made up.

The article on the time of Christ's birth by Colin Humphreys, with specific emphasis on the "Star of Bethlehem", is the most comprehensive and thoroughly documented I have ever read on the subject. Humpreys who is "a renowned Cambridge University physicist" who "was recently honored by the Queen with the title of Commander, Order of the British Empire, for services to science research." "He has been president of the Physics section of the British Association for the Advancement of Science. He has published over 400 scientific papers and given plenary lectures at major international conferences throughout the world." Do your own Google search. But you seem to feel his work can't be as good as Finegan's. Why? Can you tell me why you feel Finegan's work is superior to Humphrey's and to that of myself and others who date Christ's birth to 5 BC? I'd be interested to know.

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

Iggy,

Just curious. What sort of thing would you consider to be "objective proof of divine influence"?

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

a Christian

The Life of Brian. "Crucifixion?" "What has Rome ever done for us?" "Always look on the bright side of life." A very funny movie, indeed.

However, to compare the evidence which I have here presented that the God of the Bible created our universe to Brian's sandal is totally off the mark. For even many atheistic astronomers regularly marvel at our earth's sun/moon/400/diameter/distance ratio, which is responsible for producing total eclipses. When they do so they call it, "a coincidence unlike anything else in nature," and a "serendipitous relationship unmatched in the solar system."

However, many people of various faiths see this as strong evidence of divine design. A Google search of "400 sun moon eclipse God" will direct you to several such articles.